Coming from someone who used to use pua routines (aka pick-up artist routines) ad nauseum, the statement I am about to make may seem preposterous, but I will make it anyway:
You don’t need pua routines or gimmicks to attract women.
Or to put more clearly:
You don’t need routines to attract women in fact, if you use them, you might repel women who would otherwise be interested, and you will actively lower your own self-esteem and self-image in the process
That’s actually the truth, but to soften things up a bit, just do I don’t completely ruin your night, let’s tweak this a bit so sorry to include you on my editing process here ;_) OK, here goes:
You don’t need routines to attract women they do not increase your chances at all, women are not attracted to words, they are attracted to men
That’s more like it, don’t you think?
Some would want you to believe that you can attract women using routines, gimmicks and lines.
You might find that using these bits of candy gets the ladies laughing, but attracted to you not even close. Here’s why.
You see, what attracts women to men is autonomy and security plain and simple. A man, in the truest sense, is attractive and the more refined and mature his personality, the more attractive he is to the RIGHT women not just any old club-girl.
The only way to cultivate a real relationship with a woman, is to have one with yourself first. Become YOU, a man, autonomous, and not desperate for the approval of every female who can hear your precious routines.
Besides, if you have it going for you, “it” won’t be in your words, it will be in your vibe, your energy and your presence. That’s what women are reading when you are in their presence. Your words? Yes, but barely
So, when you use routines and lines repeatedly, you betray your own development and maturation process. I personally believe in giving guys training wheels like a line or two to get them over the hump, and out in the world.
So, if you are terrified of meeting women I will GIVE you stuff to say so that you can get started. But, if you are using routines as your primary means of communication with women, you are DEvolving, not Evolving.
What you, and any other guy who struggles with dating and relationships needs, is REAL maturation and development.
A training wheel will help for a brief period of time, but ultimately too much dependence upon these can lower your own self-esteem, and deplete your own self-image.
Each of you who do this secretly knows that you are lying, and that you are not really engaging the woman honestly. What this does is begin a highly corrosive pattern of negative feedback between your actions and self-image.
It was the case for me too. I used routines, far past the training wheel stage, to the point of trying to manipulate and control outcomes.
Here’s the rub man: If you are trying to manipulate and control the outcome by performing for the woman, so that she will like you and desire you are lying and you are sliding downhill, probably without even knowing it.
The only way to truly develop in this game is to put yourself on the line, and actually try to have a real conversation.
To try to flirt, for real; to try and tell a real story from your life; to engage her in conversation using a real question, or real situation in your surroundings.
Relate to her AS you, and you then also encourage her to relate to you AS her encouraging honesty. (Ever wonder why players are cheated on repeatedly? There’s your answer)
Even if she is not aware of what you are doing, your subconscious will be and the corrosion thus begins.
What happens is you will begin to tell yourself that you need gimmicks to gain attraction, and hold her attention. You will believe that you must say the right thing in order to win her affection.
You will see more and more that this is just a performance, more and more moving away from an authentic interaction. Women smell this a mile away and that’s why you have the strange-but-true dynamic of PUAs hanging out with other PUAs’players with players and no women in sight.
Is this you?
Time to get real.
If you’re “ready” for a real education, and are interested in learning the 10 skills which I learned during my time as PUA, check out this post here:
10 Skills from “The Game” That Will Help You Meet Women
Real skills attract women, gimmicks repel them…ready for the real thing?
I think it’s funny how a guy who relied on routines to get his confidence to talk to women is dissing it. I believe in having routines to create consistency in getting results, but I don’t believe in using other people’s routines. I’ve been in this game for 2 years and started out using other people’s routines w/o much success. Once I adapted them to my own style and from my own personal life, my success has skyrocketed. Some people like to wing it, but I prefer to have stories from my life that get consistent results!!
Reread this HPUA. The point here is to use them as training wheels, not as a social M.O. When you do that, you stifle real social development, and turn into a social automaton – a fast way to NO results.
Not only that! It seems that whenever you speak about this in the “community”, People will start to attack you and take it personally for some reason. I’ve been attacked many times for saying that. Quitting the routines and gimmicks made me a much more happier guy I am right now. No doubt.
Hi Stephen –
routine use is like religon – its repuation is known through the people who use them.
in and of itself – a routine based style is neither good nor bad.
Stephen sounds like a guy who has given up eating pizza and now gets judgemental whenever he sees someone eating pizza (â€i just donâ€™t like to see someone ruining their healthâ€¦â€)
IMO, heâ€™s making too big a deal of this. using routines may or may not be the best way to learn – but it is not going to kill off your masculinity or corrode your personality. thats ridiculous.
Heâ€™s confusing means (using routines) with ends (being socially dominant).
Routine usage is a PROVEN way of learning. Stephen himself is an example of its benefits – as are TD, and the MM and VA lot. if heâ€™s come up with what he thinks is a better wayâ€¦ great! but the degree to which heâ€™s bashing routines here is more a reflection of where heâ€™s at then what students are at, IMO.
RSD have also moved away from routine based teachings – and TD, more acceptingly, simply puts it as – â€œi used to do that, now i do this and right now i think this is betterâ€. no sweat under the collar.
A problem i forsee in natural games teachings are Worthiness issues. everyone has barriers – some people can game a 5 beautifully, but start weirding out at a 6 and some people can game a 9.5 beautifully but start weirding out at 9.5632 etc.
with routines, at least you have something to say. a natural games student, with no real stock material will get even more uncomfortable in this situation. Having something to say gives you confidence, going freestyle before your ready toâ€¦ will have to deal with this in his own way.
not a bad post – would be better if he mentioned what he proposes as an alternative to teaching routines. all this big chunk â€œreal manâ€ stuff sounds nice, but turning a regular Joe into one is a different matter.
I agree with some of what Stephen is saying. I am not crazy about using other people’s material. It just doesn’t feel like me. Yeah, I’ve had some fun conversations with girls about magic spells working, naming dogs after pop groups, and the sexiness of David Bowie. But who I am as a person… I’m not sure that’s really shining through.
That being said, I’m not ready for unscripted conversations during a pickup. Just not yet, anyway. I don’t want to go back to the days when I met a pretty women and had nothing to say, so I’d go into interview mode: where are you from, what do you do, blah, blah, blah. There’s a whole lot to be said for being fun, and routines give you a surefire and tested way to be way more fun and interesting than most guys.
I think that, for me at least, the best path is to eventually develop my OWN routines. Tell my own stories, bring up my own conversations topics. It will be scripted out and tested, yes, but it will be ALL me. Then I would avoid the problems that Stephen is talking about, right? No dishonesty, no incongruence.
What do you guys think?
I actually think Mr. Nash should explain himself further. If he’s talking about gaming (for lack of a better term) 5-8’s, he’s most probably correct. You don’t really need routines. HOWEVER, if one wants to game 9-10’s, you better bring routines (or fame and wealth). Want to know why? Mr. Nash knows why. You see, I believe he was living at ProHo with Style and if he wasn’t he was most certainly involved with the same chat boards (Mystery’s Lounge for one) that Style was. I read some old posts by Style where he talks about dropping his routines and he wasn’t able to game the 9-10’s. They all thought he was a cool and funny guy, but he wasn’t able to generate attraction. This is Style and he wasn’t able to do it!! What do you think the everyday guy off the street is going to do without routines? Style also posted that the flaking went way up when he didn’t use routines. Mr. Nash knows all this and yet he continues to say what he says. He really needs to qualify his statement. He knows that no matter what the everyday guy off the street does to improve himself (outside of becoming famous or filthy rich), he will always need routines to generate attraction in the 99th percentile women (the super-elite).
Stephen Nash says
Hey guys –
Thanks for all the comments. I love it when people reply to posts. It really helps me think thru things further, as well as helps me understand where I might be able to make myself clearer in my teaching philosophy.
All I can realy relay here is my experience as well as what I have observed. OK? So, here are some replies to some of what was asked about above:
First of all – and this is a very important point. You always attract at your level. You cannot attract a woman who lives at a higher social level than you. So, if she is a “10” and you are a “5” – regardless of what you say to her – you will not attract her. You might get her to laugh at some things that a “10”-guy might say, but as far as actually attracting her into a palpable romantic tension (necessary for a sexual encounter, as well as a long-term relationship), no words or gimmicks you say will help you. This is why I place the emphasis on self-development and in becoming that which you seek. If you experience low-to-no success with women, and yet you still believe that a kit of gimmicks will get you to the promised land, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.
In my work, I place the emphasis on lifestyle and personal development. Becoming yourself. Routines, which I mentioned in the paragraphs above, are the beginning – the necessary training wheels. But like any boy, you have to drop them eventually – whether they are yours or his, or Style’s or whomever’s…being real demands nothing canned. Women interested in real relationships will not be attracted to you unless you bring the real goods to the table. Again, you attract at your own level. If you want to attract women of a higher quality, you will have to raise your level first. Allowing yourself to believe that you can mimic this implies a lack of experience – which is FINE. Gaining that might be the next hurdle.
I am not an advocate of “the game” nor of “pick-up” – its jargon and mentality are no longer suitable for me. However, in the experience of ProHo, flaking went up astronomically the more structured we got…that’s a fact. Women could smell the BS on our carefully crafted words and stunts…and they ran for the hills (and not the Hollywood Hills either mind you). Mystery, Style and I were the only ones who got laid at all in the final three months I was there. The rest tried nobly, but came home empty handed each and every night. Experience tends to met this out for everyone though.
Ultimately guys, if you are looking for higher quality women, you will have to raise the quality of yourselves first. You cannot mimic what you do not have. Just can’t be done. Any belief other than that – in my experience only – implies a lack of experience…which is why I don’t buy any of it, anymore.
The CEIC model embraces routines only in-so-far as helping guys learn the actual skills beneath them. Being willing to drop the training wheels is not for the faint of heart – not at all – but separating the wheat from the chaff happens in all walks of life, each and every day. Why should we be any different?
OK. So let’s say that I drop all routines. The next time I approach an attractive woman, what am I supposed to say? I’m just not sure. If I wait for something spontaneous to come out, my past experience was that I would clam up or go into interview mode. What should I say?
BTW, I bought your HTGAG book in August, and it was great. It helped me out a lot… especially what you had to say about masculine identity and purpose. Good stuff.
Stephen Nash says
Good question. A few things Gd:
1) Is approaching the only way you are meeting new women? Are you also (hopefully) growing your social circuit and naturally meeting more women? This is key – because if you are able to meet women this way, which is the far better way to attract women into relationships, the interactions are much more relaxed and normal – very different than the cold approach mindset.
2) If you are doing #1, and are using cold approaches as a way to build a social circle and to practice social skills (the best attitude to have towards cold approaches IMO), then drop them slowly, but surely. Drop what is the easiest for now, then work with that for a bit, then drop the next easiest etc. Be intelligent about this. If approaching is very hard, but flirting and teasing comes more naturally – then drop the routines based around this skill. Is that clear?
I never argue with a man who wants to approach a woman – go for it, all the way I say. My point is to do it as yourself – but if you need training wheels, use them – by all means. Don’t create another excuse not to approach and learn. But if that is the only way you are meeting women, you are not yet even at the starting line for the big game.
ray mota says
not a computer wiz but if i bought your e-book will you guys be able to e-mail it to me by pdf format
Man u make alot of sense to me…I have no problem with having nothing to say..I read your book..I loved it..Man it simply shows u how to your best U…if u r passionate abt llife..ull always have somehing to say…I use to use routines with sucess..without them i was way better.i was hiding behind them although they were abt my life..now my opinion..THe ebook on this site + a bit of juggler+ atually loving women (I noticed many guys they talk abt women ,like they are numbers)will make u happy and sucessful…Shell chase you././